Hello,
Benjamin from Brothers Campfire here.
This post is potentially not safe for work. I would rather my children did not read it, but if they did, it is mild enough.
I would like to discuss nakedness.
The Bible (as told at the Campfire)
Way back in the day, Adam and Eve were strolling along blissfully naked when they ate some forbidden fruit.
This fruit brought the realization that … Hey, whoa… We are walking around outside with our birthday suits on.
Now how they made aprons out of fig leaves is beyond me, but God made them coats of skins.
I wasn’t there, but I am going to assume that the aprons just didn’t cover enough and God was like… Yeah, it’s kinda weird for you all to be walking around like that.
So, according to Herb Thiel, God didn’t put all the details in so Sunday school teachers could teach lessons.
With this authority cited, let us continue.
Time went on and Cain killed Abel his brother. Cain had to go away and when Adam was 130 years old, he had a son named Seth that looked a lot like him. One day when Seth was a teenager, he came home to see his mom, who was in her 140s making a new coat out of skins. He was really grateful because she had put on a lot of weight and all that extra girth was just embarrassing to see through stretched stitching.
It was the same ole thing it is today.
“Adam, does this coat make me look fat?”
“No Eve, you know, you are as beautiful as the day you stole my rib away. “
Anyway, Seth resolved to pass the lifesaving tradition of sidestepping those discussions .
(Eve went on numerous diets throughout her many years and kept a variable size wardrobe to account for the “bloating.”)
Importantly, Seth passed on the concept of “being covered.”
Being a male in the “Patriarchy”, Seth thought he was above the rules. One day, he was walking around without a shirt on and one of his daughters was grossed out by his belly hair and armpits. Embarrased, he put his shirt on from there on out.
Think not? Well, it could have happened that way. Noah’s family had enough sense to cover dad up when he was drowned in alcohol. Serious. He drunk more in than if the earth had a worldwide deluge.
He was just layin there stark naked, and no one wanted to see beyond his husbandman tan.
Animals
In a way, most animals got clothes. Well, not the naked mole rat. Yuck. Just Yuck.
What about chickens? Think about the last one you popped in the oven. A chicken can not survive long without a covering. It is vulnerable and the heat or cold will kill it.
Look at him. It is shameful.
Why?
Why, Benjamin from Brothers Campfire do you bring this up?
The other day, I stupidly lamented aloud that men are wearing dresses and women aren’t wearing anything.
I was instructed by a woman that likes women that anyone can be what they want to be and dress in the clothing they want to wear. Women should not be sexualized for nudity. She stated,”Nudity is liberty.”
With a weak and somewhat inaccurate argument, I asked, “Why dresses? Didn’t they go out when women got the right to vote and were allowed in factories?” I got no answer.
I asked her what she thought about me looking at girls on magazine covers at the supermarket and she told me that was cool. I notified her that I was the parent of a 17-year-old girl and asked what message I would send to my daughter. I asked about unrealistic body expectations. She agreed I should not look at magazines with her around. I then asked her if my son would have the maturity to not objectify women if he saw me looking at them for the sake of art. (of course that is why we look at women on magazines) She didn’t answer and abruptly ended the conversation for some reason.
Nakedness is not liberty.
I was going to give a long drawn-out explanation, but I think I made my position known.
I would like to know your thoughts. This is an open forum. My method of engagement on this post will be asking clarifying questions. The floor is yours.
Author: Benjamin
Benjamin Thiel is a community leader, urban farmer, and author of The Ongoing Tale at Brothers Campfire. He might know a guy...
Well, I believe in respecting everyone. I have traditional values. I practice modesty in my dress, That said I understand that men are men.
I think that saying men are men is disrespectful towards men. Not all men objectify women.
MAYBE HE SHOULD FEED ME INSTEAD OF SHAMING ME
Friend, what are you hungry for?
Thank you for your perspective. As a man with a daughter and several younger sisters, I hope you are correct. Do the covers of magazines objectify women?
Yes.
And others objectify men. People like eye candy.
Also Mona, I re read my post numerous times. While I might say men are men at some point in the future, I cannot find that I wrote that.
It wasn’t you. It was in the first comment
Oh, I see it now.
Hi, Mona, I meant men are visual. There are many areas of research about men being biologically driven for evolutionary cues based on physical features. Men look at women, it’s HOW they interact id the difference between disrespectful and appreciating beauty.
LEARN TO CONTROL YOUR URGES AND DRIVES BEFORE SHAMING OTHERS OR DEMANDING TO COVER UP
JESUS MARRIED A WHORE!!!!!!!!!
HE TURNED OVER HIS MINISTRY TO HER
PoeEternal, I pride myself in answering every comment. This, and another comment took me a minute to reapond to.
God once commanded a prophet to marry a whore as a demonstration to Isreal of His great love for His people.
While our theology is different, let’s put that aside. Would Jesus’ bride want her children to be whores?
I’M NOT A WHORE AND SHAME ON YOU FOR IMPLYING SUCH A THING WITH THE TACKY COMMENTS YOU LEFT
You stated, “JESUS MARRIED A WHORE!!!!!!!!!” I did not mean to infer you were a whore. I am asking if a woman would want her daughter to be one. I apologize for you to have felt I meant that.
I think you have a good point about men being brought up to exercise self control.
YOU GOT A LOT TO LEARN ABOUT IT – SAYING WHATEVER YOU WANT WITHOUT CONSEQUENCE
I think we all can learn more about self control . What recommendations do you have for me?
I think that fathers have a duty to help their daughters to have a healthy body image.
Absolutely!
I thought this was an excellent choice to write about.
Thank you!
Well, it’s not men who are being paid to pose on men’s magazines, so who is co-objectifying women? And could they please stop it! That’s not true freedom.
🤠🔥
Well spoken. Do you know anyone that benefits from engaging in voyeurism?
Quite the opposite of benefit: loss.
Different strokes for different folks, however, exploitation of men, women and children is unsettling, IMO. I think we all should exercise self-control.
Well spoken. Thank you for chiming in. I appreciate you.
Most welcome!
I believe we need a whole lot more love, peace and understanding in this world and a whole lot less hate, insensitivity, abuse, exploitation and violence. Why all the shouting and screaming and name-calling? We need to let God into our hearts.
He was first to visit my blog and cast a stone! Insensitive gaslighter!
Poe Eternal, lets talk. On your terms. I see you are deeply upset.
If you choose, https://brotherscampfire.com/contact/
I think we Americans are WAAAAY too uptight about nudity. As a woman, I resent that men’s nipples are NBD but mine are somehow obscene.
As for men wearing skirts & dresses, I read that they like the freedom and airflow. I personally prefer the sweat wicking of pants (on me).
I saw my first guy wearing a skirt in public, as their regular clothing – no ‘statement, in the late 80s. I had and have no issues with it. Though I’m pretty sure a guy in a miniskirt would cause me to double-take.
🧑🌾🔥
Well thanks for putting my brain into overdrive. Now it’s at the current issue being people who use photo filters so heavily that they are unrevognizable. And how that’s causing people to be even more exposed to unrealistic beauty but thinking it’s the norm. And some have complete disconnect between their real appearance and how they present themselves online, believing the filtered photo is real and the mirror is lying.
Do you think that effects relationships in real life?
Definitely. There’s already proof of it among teens. Plus someone who posts their real appearance is likely to get bullied as ugly. Will be interesting to see the long term impact.
Oh dear…. Now I will have to post te real me without filters!
Lol!!
He literally came to my blog and shamed me and told me to cover up 🤡
He who?
As a woman that was raised on the cusp of ‘womanhood’ in a divided shift of culture regarding ‘true woman hood’, ladylike behavior, working outside the home – in a variety of positions….
From mid-1980s -1990s – here”s the ‘mixed messages” as things change, but inner dialouges of judgement stay the same –
(if you’re going to town, after doing chores, take a shower, do your hair, makeup, put on pantyhose dress, nice sandles, AND no white bags/sandals/attire after Labor Day or Before Memorial Day) VS.
(Um, I built fence this morning – did chores – then started canning garden harvest – hubby came in for early, quick, lunch and said, “Need [this part]…… can ya run over to [insert local shop] and pick it up while I tear down the mechanical piece of equipment? Gotta get this done before [insert time frame – sun sets, humidity/dew point changes, this weekend cuz I’ll be at work for someone else all week) AND I could was TOLD perfectly okay to run into town in pants/jeans, work clothes and well – that’s ‘different’ –
VS. “Why is there casual Friday for men, but I still must wear some form of dress/skirt everyday of the week, to ‘be professional’ and display that I take my job seriously?”
Mother of sons – step-mother/auntie to young women – the world of fashion, objectifying, humans that have a ‘trauma’ in their past, OR a desire to see everything around them as serving them, instead of a greater good – religion, mores, traditions, etc., etc., –
There is, really, for me – only context – personal freedom from opression given just the style of clothes you prefer to wear – the message you wish to align with, if ya EVEN know WHAT the ‘current/ever changing message’ actually IS in social media trending land – etc….
But at the end of the day – for myself, and I wish really, we could ‘get back to such things’ as:
1. Never Judge a Book by it’s Cover
2. Functional first, pretty/in fashion when possible
3. Dress of the context/forum/arena you wish to be a part of
4. Teach your children to look for the PERSON themselves – their hopes/dreams & fears/struggles – – not their “presentation” –
On me own biases?
There is a young man that works at a store I regularly shop at – he is so nice! Polite, remembers me, hustles when it’s busy, takes time to ‘just visit/shoot the breeze’ if it’s not – OFFERS to help if the shelves got hit and what ya want is empty – if he happens to race by where I stand, looking at an empty slot on the shelf…..he STOPS and says, “Delivery delayed! We got it in back – gimme a minute – how many ya want??”
I CRINGE inwardly almost everytime – if I just observe him at work – I listen to my own ‘mind chatter’ that I have YET to have re-written!
“Why on earth is he wearing those jeans that belt around near the bottom of his butt? ”
Yes – this is the FLIP side of the coin – he doesn’t ‘show his arse’ – in fact – his ‘showing underwear’ is less revealing than some beach/pool wear I’ve seen sported by many males over my lifetime, that – um, TOO MUCH!
So see? Even while I say – ‘should be this way, can we do this? What is context, cultural standards, etc., ?”
I still wonder why he wears those jeans – I JUSTIFY it to myself by saying,
“Well – that impedes mobility! how does he bend, lift, run, walk, squat, kneel, get back up, with that kind of constriction around the top of his thighs/lower butt????”
But, that’s a lie – Truth be told? I CAN”T where various fashions and ‘get work done” and I just ‘judge’ and ‘justify to myself’ over it – all while he over and over, proves – he can DO, be a really great human being, customer service, hard worker – ALL while wearing clothes that don’t say, ‘look at me! ya want to have sex with me, right???”
LOL –
Sorry – but ya asked –
I am glad I asked, TamrahJo. Thank you for your take in this discussion. However, I have a format I am trying to answer in today, so here is my question to you.. . . If I dress like a police officer, will folks expect that I am one or respond as one?
Ahh – Excellent question and, probably not a ‘satisfactory answer’ from me, BUT – well – it depends – on variables – context/forum/individuals/experiences by individuals –
So, I read this and heard clothing/etc., and THEN read your other post on Danger – I am, going to reply, AS IF – these two posts are connected in a common theme that you just asked me –
And the really sucky, not much help to ya answer is, “Depends”
WHAT it depends upon is very personal to you and your experience – and what the bulk of your interactions are with ‘others’ that see/view you in a certain way – whether you are in uniform or not! position of authority or not! Known in community as ‘this/that’ or not –
For those who have suffered at the hands of injustice under the ‘uniform of power’ whether they were doing anything wrong or not – it’s just gonna be hard to overcome their ‘immediate thoughts’ –
For those who think ‘he’s one of us, no matter what he does, not matter whether he holds to our standards – we just got have his back’ – it just looks different –
AND YES! If you STOP to take EVERYTHING into account, assess it – do your best, etc., you’ll NEVER, ever act in anyway other than wildly swinging ways – to meet this need or that – that maybe ‘feels the same’ but really isn’t – not for that interaction – at that moment –
There are folks who wear uniforms in many walks of life – the power power of authority they have over those with less power/control, the more important it becomes for the person wearing it to be increasingly, above reproach 24/7 which, is nigh on near impossible for many humans in a wildly swinging world of opinions, 2.5 ‘we care about this’ societal/culture world – –
So, I will go back to Roots – base facts! – instead – that have, for me, born out over time/experience:
IF you signed up to serve, protect, defend, honor, integrity, justice, stand for what you truly feel is right, even if you stand alone?
To me? That carries through in speech, body language, way of being, way you carry yourself, interact with others –
IF you have decided you don’t need the safety of the herd that backs ya up, simply cuz you’re dressed the same, or wish not betray yourself and others, just because ‘ya can’ through ‘power dressing’ (uniform) that – too – will carry through –
Whether you are in uniform or not – whether you are walking your ‘beat’ or walking through the woods – to me? Good hearted people who truly interact with their surroundings/take them in/assess will SEE YOU for what you are – no matter how you’re dressed – on duty or off –
Traumatized/disenfranchised/opressed folks that ae under harsh control in a myriad of ways, that feel OUT of their control? They may/may not see you as an immediate enemy.
I am so sorry that I am commenting so long – but to me? Some questions just CANNOT be answered in yes/no – me? Personally?
IF you show up i uniform, knocking on my door – or banging on it – I’m gonna figure it’s important!
But then, too, when outside (regional) law enforcement shows up, beats on my door and wants to question me for 20 minutes about if I know my address? With power plays?
“Meh – youngn’ rookies – they have no clue who they just thought they could bully into ‘confessing’ to a sin not committed’ – LOL
There ARE NO EASY Answers, simply because – everyone has their life experiences – I was raised to respect the position held, even if I didn’t respect the person holding it – Sometimes I got cited for (vehicle violations) and sometimes I didn’t – sometimes I mouthed off and just figured, well, guess my mouth might get me in trouble this time…
But, I’ve NEVER long term grown up in/had to live in an area where I was completely powerless – where no matter what I did, no matter how hard I tried, no matter how hard I worked, It seemed impossible to transcend the circumstances of my birth, my geo location, my resources available to me without lying, stealing, cheating or bearing false witness. 😀
Thus – my motto is – I try not to ‘assume’ who someone else is just from how they are dressed – but – I have worked in law enforcement and i have worked in the industry (support operations) – and I have veteran friends, family of military service – AND then, too, I”ve worked many an position that brought me into contact with ‘wannabes’ who dress/talk the part, but don’t really show up for the hard stuff – cept as it ‘benefits’ them – of service, duty, honor –
Sorry I couldn’t give ya a quick answer – but – this is one reason why I don’t march in protest rallies – EVER!
When large groups of people with opposing views convene upon an area?
Crap is gonna hit the fan sooner or later no matter how peacefully any individual was doing their own stuff – and once a tide of force/rebellion breaks out? Never good for anyone on the frontlines – true of heart and/or wannabe in power – 😀
Hang in there, Brother – you’ll figure it out – you know your inner compass – you are just tweaking it to know better how to ‘go from here’ – <3
Thank you for your candid answer!
Um – okay – we shall see whether being candid bodes well for me – in long run – or not – LOL
With me, please keep it real! What recommendation do you have for my next post? I want more of this!
Um, I try to do my best to keep it ‘real’ – as far as I can when telling my story BUT also trying to see the other side of things – from folks who don’t feel as I do –
As for recommendations on your next post – how could I tell you what your passion, concerns, vulnerabilities, solutions you wonder if might work are?
I cannot – but, this, I DO STILL hold, no matter who does what, no matter what advice is out there to connect – build community, a biz, etc. –
Be yourself – sometimes ya might vent or whine over the injustice, for you/for others, for many – – sometimes, ya just want to float an idea – sometimes – ya just tell your story in HOPES that the way you tell something that is JUST another VERSION of human experience that has been said ad nauseum, over and over – and why should you say it again???
1. Because you are passionate about the topic
2. No one likes feeling like they are the only person in the world that has had to struggle with (such and such)
3. AND – Because sometimes?? The way ya say it, or what you share of your experience? Just lands with another soul – They’ve heard it 14,000 times, but all the sudden? The way THEY said it, just then, all the sudden? BOOM! The Light of Hope/Inspiration/Creativity etc just goes off in their head/heart/body – just cuz you said it like ya did!
YA want more of this???? Be yourself – show up – ignore trollers, interact with seekers, be kind to those hurting and learn to tell the difference between them all, even if ya gotta say, “Can ya clarify this point? Not certain I get what the heck you’re referring to” –
But above all else – be yourself – good, bad and ludicrous/ugly – (yeah – I really CARE about that crap so much that’s my blog title! )
Cuz, at the end of the day? We have
only a few things, as humans, to count upon, in daily life – trust, networks, common ground, innovation on solutions that don’t get stymied by lack of dissenting voices –
That’s it – we can learn to survive, etc., but at the end of the day?
Do we REALLY, want to go back to the days when keeping warm, fed, hydrated and alive meant we, sans fur, feathers, flight, brute strength, etc., had to work 24/7 all by ourselves, in hopes of just waking up breathing?
Nope – nice to know ya can, if ya have to (education/learning/experience) but really, at end of day?
Humans are only a top of species planet list SIMPLY because we cooperate, collaborate, protect our vulnerable, and learn how to leverage off new ideas, while making it also possible to sleep in the same cave next to 14 other snoring folks – LOL
Java Bean: “Lately Mama and Dada have been taking our collars off when we roughhouse so that we don’t get them tangled up with each other. Does that count as being naked?”
Lulu: “Of course not. We still have our furs. Unlike that weirdo mole rat!”
Ha ha! Good little doggies!
Naked business is for private setting. I have no intention to be flesh showing in public. I do not temp an alcoholic with drinks, so I do not tempt men with my nakedness.
Thank you.
On another note, I work with and befrieinded transgenda frineds, I feel it’s best to love them as an individual with a name in stead of geting caught up with their dress code and preference.
I like folks for who they are. The messages some dress codes send are a head scratcher for me.
I am all for freedom of expression in clothing as long as it’s not vulgar and in bad spirit(s).
Fair enough.
Are women on magazines seen as artists? I have my doubts. At least, not as ivory tower, respected artists. At best, they are pitied.
I pity women who pose on magazines. Thinking it out, I do not see it as art either.
Very good one… the consumer may see it as art, but producers and models likely see it as business.